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#381 TemplateRex

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 06:50 PM

I think red loses in first example. He is continuously chasing if Im not mistaken. Second example is a joke, TR has it right. 

 

No, in the first example the trick is to alternate the moves of the two blue captains and you will break the continuous chase every 4th move. See also  http://forum.strateg...ge-4#entry18501 for the same situation (diagram no longer visible)


Edited by TemplateRex, 16 June 2019 - 06:51 PM.

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#382 TemplateRex

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 06:53 PM

let me ask the question in a different way. On situation below red has just taken the risk to capture a major from blue with his marsh who has just been revealed on right. Now red is a major ahead.

 

fYr3KFY.jpg

 

blue gen then moves A6-A7 major B7 evades to B6    1st chasing move

blue gen moves A7-B7 major B6-A6     2nd chasing move

blue gen B7-B8 red cap C8-C7    3rd chasing move

blue gen B8-C8 red cap C7-B7    4th chasing move

 

can blue gen continue threatening red col by moving C8-D8?

 

The answer is: yes of course. Which rule would prevent blue from doing so? There is no fixed limit on the number of chasing moves, as long as you dont' enter a position that has previously occurred in the current chasing sequence. After 4. c8-d8 there is a new position in the active chasing sequence. 


Edited by TemplateRex, 16 June 2019 - 06:54 PM.

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#383 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 07:18 PM

ok then in the case against MM how many chasing moves would be necessary to proof a repeatability?


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#384 TemplateRex

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 08:34 PM

ok then in the case against MM how many chasing moves would be necessary to proof a repeatability?

 

You have to stop if you can only reach a repeated position, very easy and already pointed out in my first reply:

 

1. f2-f3 (threaten e3/g3) g3-g2 (evade)

2. f3-f2 (threaten g2)      g2-g3 (evade)

3. f2-e2 (threaten e3)     e3-f3 (evade)

4. e2-f2 (threaten f3)      f3-e3 (evade)

5. f2-g2 (threaten g3)     g3-f3 (evade)

 

and now if blue retreats

 

6. g2-f2 (threaten f3)       f3-g3 (evade)

 

all his moves will yield a position that was already present in the current chasing sequence (after the 1st, 3rd and 5th move) so blue cannot move and is directly lost.

 

Alternatively, if blue does 

 

6. g2-g3/j2 f3-f2

7. g3/h2-g2 f2-f1 and red captures the flag.


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#385 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 08:55 PM

but because MM was the player making the first evading move he would also become the first player to make an evading move that will be the first move of a repeated sequence on the board, so he should be the first player who has to make a different move, in other words he has to allow me to make a non threatening move?


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#386 TemplateRex

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 09:02 PM

but because MM was the player making the first evading move he would also become the first player to make an evading move that will be the first move of a repeated sequence on the board, so he should be the first player who has to make a different move, in other words he has to allow me to make a non threatening move?

 

Yes, MM would have been the first to create a repeated position after his 6th move in my variation above. But that is perfectly allowed. See ISF 11.1: "The continuous chaser may not play a chasing move which would lead to a position on the board which has already taken place."

 

Since MM wasn't chasing continuously, he can make a move leading to a repeated position, but *you as the chaser* can't. That's the crucial distinction. Again, please read the rules carefully.


Edited by TemplateRex, 16 June 2019 - 09:08 PM.

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#387 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 05:48 AM

Ok thanks for clarifying. I guess many on this website might be interested by this. Neither MM nor me were aware of it like that. For us 2x single chase with same piece was not equivalent rule as double chase.
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#388 TemplateRex

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 06:34 AM

Ok thanks for clarifying. I guess many on this website might be interested by this. Neither MM nor me were aware of it like that. For us 2x single chase with same piece was not equivalent rule as double chase.


It used to be that new participants in ISF live tourneys got a leaflet explaining ISF rules 10 & 11 with a few diagrams for the two and more square rules. Maybe MasterMind as a SBN board member has a digital version that he can post here?

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#389 Nortrom

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 07:18 AM

I'll post it later, but the paper you're speaking of contains basic knowledge. Not advanced and highly unlikely situations, it is called a "quickguide" for a quick start for a reason ;).

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#390 TemplateRex

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 07:20 AM

I'll post it later, but the paper you're speaking of contains basic knowledge. Not advanced and highly unlikely situations, it is called a "quickguide" for a quick start for a reason ;).

 

I know, but IIRC, the paper also lists the explicit ISF rules 10/11 text. I think it is kind of mandatory for all players (and certainly for all MT members, who are judging chasing cases after all) to know the precise game rules.


Edited by TemplateRex, 17 June 2019 - 07:21 AM.

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#391 Nortrom

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 07:29 AM

Yes, especially MT members. Live referees make mistakes, too, occasionally. Luckily, MT has five, so the probability of an incorrect ruling is less. Also, it is not a live happening where an immediate decision must be made, unlike IRL Tournaments.

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#392 TemplateRex

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 07:42 AM

Yes, especially MT members. Live referees make mistakes, too, occasionally. Luckily, MT has five, so the probability of an incorrect ruling is less. Also, it is not a live happening where an immediate decision must be made, unlike IRL Tournaments.

 

Also, live you don't have the rewind option with a video recording :)


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#393 Nortrom

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 09:39 AM

https://srv-file2.go...ad/c8Z5qo/s.pdf


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#394 Nortrom

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 10:30 AM

Some additional info:

 

We (SBN) made those documents to hand out to new players. We did not want to make the read too extensive, so not all "unlikely" or "extremely rare" cases are pointed out. It could easily become a 10-pager which no new player is interested in.

 

At the start of a tournament, if there are new players, the referee or someone else often summons all new players for a quick and short demo of the rules, especially regarding the movement rules.

 

So, ultimately, while not complete; it is not the goal to give a complete and exhaustive book of examples. The fundamentals are explained and based on this, we feel all situations can be derived. For example: Counter chasing can be derived with the fundamental info and guidance from a referee.

 

Is it a perfect document? surely not, but we feel and hope it serves as solid starting point. If we were to explain all hypothetical situations one could come up with, the text would become as long and unpleasant as the GSFR on here.

 

* This document was translated from Dutch to EN for the live WC 2018 in Naarden, in a rush, and probably contains a spelling mistake or two. 


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#395 TemplateRex

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 11:13 AM

https://srv-file2.go...ad/c8Z5qo/s.pdf


Not authorized.

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#396 Nortrom

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 11:18 AM

Works fine here, but anyway, new link/provider:

 

http://s000.tinyuplo...996324038563422


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#397 MG_Earp

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 04:34 PM

These puzzles this week have changed my outlook on the game. I used to think that the maneuvering in Stratego was fairly straightforward (no multiple captures, no promotion) compared to chess or draughts, but the puzzles by Nortrom have convinced me that there are so many subtleties that are very easy to overlook. Getting the crucial squares/open files and ranks, flipping the 2SQ advantage, self-sacrifices to clear paths etc.

Yes, your variations were correct AFAICS. Very nice idea that you found with getting the 2SQ advantage by a classic 3-move shuffle (this theme is used in chess and draughts as well) for the scout on A4 vs. captain F3. First forcing the major to the 8th row is key here, since it removes the major one more square away from the flag. Keeping the 9-th row for the major is what led me to investigate the E7-E8 defense instead.

And BTW, Napoleon made what could have been a crucial mistake playing the sergeant E2-E3, blocking an open rank. Giving away 2 tempi should not have been done so quickly.

Which brings me to another pet peeve of mine: many people play endgames way too quickly. Why leave almost 4 minutes on the clock when there are only a few pieces left and you need to find a way to the flag or some repetition? Just use 2 or 3 minutes to calculate all the variations to the end. Even if you can't find a forced win right away, you still get 15 seconds per move to finish the game. It's just silly to lose with 3 minutes left that could have been used earlier to save a game. People say "every piece count", but "every second counts too!".


Old reply but with this puzzles, you gave me completly different view to the game. As you said I am playing end gamea very quick because was never thinking that the aspect is very similar to chess. But here are calculations for end games even harder then in chess :)
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