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#201 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 07:33 AM

Dan, there was a way for you to win the match earlier, without KARAISKAKIS being able to prevent it. Take a look at this photo.
 
A2-A7 E6-E7
A7-A4 and you have 2-square advantage so you'll be able to pass your scout to reach KARAISKAKIS' flag.
 
28832808_1974338982829890_367720366_n.pn


Good. This is answer to question 1 ... what about question 2?
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#202 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 12:55 PM

a7HKvEc.png

 

Without this misclick my plan was to move the major to G9.

Scout is blocked from all the possibilities to reach my flag during the movement of major to G9

In this position as I descibe in the image above , flag is protected and miner is free to capture all the unmoved pieces (witht the protection of my captain)



#203 Major Nelson

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 05:22 PM

If KARAISKAKIS plays E9-E8 instead of E9-F9 (missclick):

 

A8-A3 KARAISKAKIS has to play F4-F3 to retain his 2-square-rule advantage (if instead he plays E8-F8 then we have E3-E2, F8-G8, A3-I3, G8-H8, I3-I10, H8-H9, I10-G10 and win for Napoleon 1er)

A3-A9 E8-E9

A9-A8 E9-E8

A8-A4 F3-F4

A4-A3 E8-F8

E3-E2 F8-G8

A3-I3 G8-H8

I3-I10 H8-H9

I10-G10 Napoleon 1er wins

 

So without KARAISKAKIS' missclick and if both players always make the optimal moves Napoleon 1er wins.

28833030_1974686722795116_1013935429_n.p


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#204 KARAISKAKIS

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 07:46 PM

If KARAISKAKIS plays E9-E8 instead of E9-F9 (missclick):

A8-A3 KARAISKAKIS has to play F4-F3 to retain his 2-square-rule advantage (if instead he plays E8-F8 then we have E3-E2, F8-G8, A3-I3, G8-H8, I3-I10, H8-H9, I10-G10 and win for Napoleon 1er)
A3-A9 E8-E9
A9-A8 E9-E8
A8-A4 F3-F4
A4-A3 E8-F8 correct move here is F4-F3
E3-E2 F8-G8
A3-I3 G8-H8
I3-I10 H8-H9
I10-G10 Napoleon 1er wins

So without KARAISKAKIS' missclick and if both players always make the optimal moves Napoleon 1er wins.
28833030_1974686722795116_1013935429_n.p


In fifth move blue captain moves F4-F3 instead the major move you wrote E8-F8

#205 Major Nelson

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 07:49 PM

 

If KARAISKAKIS plays E9-E8 instead of E9-F9 (missclick):
 
A8-A3 KARAISKAKIS has to play F4-F3 to retain his 2-square-rule advantage (if instead he plays E8-F8 then we have E3-E2, F8-G8, A3-I3, G8-H8, I3-I10, H8-H9, I10-G10 and win for Napoleon 1er)
A3-A9 E8-E9
A9-A8 E9-E8
A8-A4 F3-F4
A4-A3 E8-F8 correct move here is F4-F3
E3-E2 F8-G8
A3-I3 G8-H8
I3-I10 H8-H9
I10-G10 Napoleon 1er wins
 
So without KARAISKAKIS' missclick and if both players always make the optimal moves Napoleon 1er wins.
28833030_1974686722795116_1013935429_n.p

 

Then red simply goes back to A4 and has a free path. Red has 2-square-rule advantage, purple can't prevent letting the scout pass.


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#206 TemplateRex

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:25 PM

zJh3W74.jpg

Blue to move. Game: E9-F9??

 

I think blue should have played another move, not the supposedly intended E9-E8 (as demonstrated by Major Nelson) but E7-E8!

 

Small variation:

 

1...          E7-E8

2. A8-A7 E8-E7

3. A7-A8 E9-E8 but now the scout can't go to A4 since then the 7/8 line would be crossed 3 times in a row

 

Other variation

 

1...          E7-E8

2. A8-A3 E9-F9 (the major on the 9th row is one move faster than on the 8th row)

3. E3-E2 F9-G9

4. A3-I3 G9-H9

5. I3-I10 H9-H10 blue is in time and wins

 

So red probably has to force a draw by

 

1...          E7-E8

2. A8-A7 E8-E7

3. A7-A8 E9-E8

4. A8-A9 E8-E9

5. A9-A8 E7-E8 etc.

 

It's my understanding that scouts don't threaten in the sense of double-chasing, so red can continue this endlessly.


Edited by TemplateRex, 08 March 2018 - 10:51 PM.

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#207 Major Nelson

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:54 PM

zJh3W74.jpg

Blue to move. Game: E9-F9??

 

I think blue should have played another move, not the supposedly intended E9-E8 (as demonstrated by Major Nelson) but E7-E8!

 

Small variation:

 

1...          E7-E8

2. A8-A7 E8-E7

3. A7-A8 E9-E8 but now the scout can't go to A4 since then the 7/8 line would be crossed 3 times in a row

 

Other variation

 

1...          E7-E8

2. A8-A3 E9-F9 (the major on the 9th row is one move faster than on the 8th row)

3. E2-E3 F9-G9

4. A3-I3 G9-H9

5. I3-I10 H9-H10 blue is in time and wins

 

So red probably has to force a draw by

 

1...          E7-E8

2. A8-A7 E8-E7

3. A7-A8 E9-E8

4. A8-A9 E8-E9

5. A9-A8 E7-E8 etc.

 

It's my understanding that scouts don't threaten in the sense of double-chasing, so red can continue this endlessly.

You continue to impress me Rex. I think you are right, if both players play optimally it's a draw. At least my proposal as to how Napoleon 1er could have won earlier was correct, right?



#208 TemplateRex

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 11:51 PM

You continue to impress me Rex. I think you are right, if both players play optimally it's a draw. At least my proposal as to how Napoleon 1er could have won earlier was correct, right?

 

These puzzles this week have changed my outlook on the game. I used to think that the maneuvering in Stratego was fairly straightforward (no multiple captures, no promotion) compared to chess or draughts, but the puzzles by Nortrom have convinced me that there are so many subtleties that are very easy to overlook. Getting the crucial squares/open files and ranks, flipping the 2SQ advantage, self-sacrifices to clear paths etc.

 

Yes, your variations were correct AFAICS. Very nice idea that you found with getting the 2SQ advantage by a classic 3-move shuffle (this theme is used in chess and draughts as well) for the scout on A4 vs. captain F3. First forcing the major to the 8th row is key here, since it removes the major one more square away from the flag. Keeping the 9-th row for the major is what led me to investigate the E7-E8 defense instead.

 

And BTW, Napoleon made what could have been a crucial mistake playing the sergeant E2-E3, blocking an open rank. Giving away 2 tempi should not have been done so quickly.

 

Which brings me to another pet peeve of mine: many people play endgames way too quickly. Why leave almost 4 minutes on the clock when there are only a few pieces left and you need to find a way to the flag or some repetition? Just use 2 or 3 minutes to calculate all the variations to the end. Even if you can't find a forced win right away, you still get 15 seconds per move to finish the game. It's just silly to lose with 3 minutes left that could have been used earlier to save a game. People say "every piece count", but "every second counts too!".


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#209 TemplateRex

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 09:41 AM

1z0Wx8J.png

Red to move. All pieces known.

 

Quiz Nr. 4 by TemplateRex*:

  1. What is the outcome with optimal play from both sides?

*I didn't invent this one myself, source will be revealed later.

 

Note: since Major Nelson partially solved Napoleon's latest puzzle that contained a major, I put in two majors for this one. Hopefully it'll bring him luck  ;)

 


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#210 Fks

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 09:59 AM

gen just takes scout on G7 and he should be fine for at least a draw.


Edited by Fks, 09 March 2018 - 10:00 AM.

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#211 TemplateRex

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 10:17 AM

gen just takes scout on G7 and he should be fine for at least a draw.

 

3wuw5d8.jpg


Edited by TemplateRex, 09 March 2018 - 10:18 AM.

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#212 don mitsos

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 12:03 PM

What happens if when A8-A3 F10-F9?

I think that the scout can pass to the other side of the board but that does not mean that red wins. If optimal moves were made i think purple has the advantage 

 

 

28833030_1974686722795116_1013935429_n.p



#213 TemplateRex

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 01:44 PM

What happens if when A8-A3 F10-F9?

I think that the scout can pass to the other side of the board but that does not mean that red wins. If optimal moves were made i think purple has the advantage 

 

 

28833030_1974686722795116_1013935429_n.p

 

Do you mean in this diagram: instead of missclick E9-F9?, the intended E9-E8 instead and then after A8-A3 F10-F9?


Edited by TemplateRex, 09 March 2018 - 01:45 PM.

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#214 don mitsos

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 02:56 PM

I mean when the scout goes to A3 the purple to play F10-F9



#215 TemplateRex

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 03:18 PM

4zDoQ6e.png

Red to move.

 

If you mean this diagram, I think after

 

1. E3-E2 F9-G9 (captain F4 has 2SQR against, and red threatens A3-I3-I10-G10, this prevents that)

2. A3-A10 red wins 


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#216 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 07:37 PM

zJh3W74.jpg

Blue to move. Game: E9-F9??

 

I think blue should have played another move, not the supposedly intended E9-E8 (as demonstrated by Major Nelson) but E7-E8!

 

Small variation:

 

1...          E7-E8

2. A8-A7 E8-E7

3. A7-A8 E9-E8 but now the scout can't go to A4 since then the 7/8 line would be crossed 3 times in a row

 

Other variation

 

1...          E7-E8

2. A8-A3 E9-F9 (the major on the 9th row is one move faster than on the 8th row)

3. E3-E2 F9-G9

4. A3-I3 G9-H9

5. I3-I10 H9-H10 blue is in time and wins

 

So red probably has to force a draw by

 

1...          E7-E8

2. A8-A7 E8-E7

3. A7-A8 E9-E8

4. A8-A9 E8-E9

5. A9-A8 E7-E8 etc.

 

It's my understanding that scouts don't threaten in the sense of double-chasing, so red can continue this endlessly.

ok but the point is Karaiskakis said he would have moved the major up instead of horizontally, so first move E7-E8 is excluded. See his declaration: http://forum.strateg...e-wco/?p=446997


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#217 TemplateRex

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:08 PM

ok but the point is Karaiskakis said he would have moved the major up instead of horizontally, so first move E7-E8 is excluded. See his declaration: http://forum.strateg...e-wco/?p=446997


Yes, I know his intentions. Perhaps he would have missclicked on the miner instead :) But the intended move with major is red win, and still silver medal for you, but move with miner should be draw. Don’t know how the Buchholz points would turn out for 2nd 3rd 4th place in that case.

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#218 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:00 PM

1z0Wx8J.png

Red to move. All pieces known.

 

Quiz Nr. 4 by TemplateRex*:

  1. What is the outcome with optimal play from both sides?

*I didn't invent this one myself, source will be revealed later.

 

Note: since Major Nelson partially solved Napoleon's latest puzzle that contained a major, I put in two majors for this one. Hopefully it'll bring him luck  ;)

I wopuld go for:

 

 ....         F7-G7 red captures 1 scout and corners col

then if blue moves major or 2nd scout red just make sure blue cannot pass his scout in red's field, so assume blue understands this and plays:

 

D9-E9  G7-F7

F8-E8 F7-E7

then if blue makes E7 - D7 E8-D8 if blue makes E7-F7 leave it cornered like this and start to move spy D2-D3

 

red shall get a win his tactic shall be exchanging gen for col, exchganging majors, exchanging last scouts till he remains with spy against marsh with 2 square rules at his advantage. To get it he shall possibly make first a vertical scout move when blue would move his marsh.

 

...still I believe this situation on the board can never happen. How can blue let red threatening both his col and scout on red's turn while all pieces in particular marsh is known? What was the last move of blue before red's turn?


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#219 roeczak

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:13 PM

Maybe blue captured a major lets say with the col
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#220 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:27 PM

ok but why would  blue have captured a major in front of opponent's gen while he could have moved his scout G7-J7?


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