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SEPERATION OF POWERS: an open letter


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#1 The Maestro

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:36 AM

This is a topic of early 2014 but still very interesting, since the subject are:

 

- cleaning up the forum

- moderators

- tournaments

- and more



#2 The Maestro

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:38 AM

A new year A new start

 

The way things were going in 2013 showed me one thing: there need to be some huge changes here, or else this whole thing is pretty much doomed.

 

There are a lot of problems and they are made even bigger by not taking the RIGHT steps/actions. So let’s first take a look what the problems are:

 

1. glitching

2. refusing tie

3. abusive players / trash talk

4. multiple accounts

5. ELO ranking/match making/rank sitters

6. The JC / TC / Moderators

 

Ad 1 & 2. These should be fixed by program changes, and since that won’t happen soon we have to deal with it and make some additional rules (see point 6).

 

Ad 3.  Since the goal is to create a place where all people can play and feel good, we need to get rid of all the trashtalking. It should NOT be part of online gaming. You a playing people you don't know and this game is not all about you. So don't start herassing people just because YOU think that is cool. There are certain members that really love to do it. Add them to your friends list, invite them for as many games as you want and start throwing insults. Leave others alone or get banned. Again see point 6. 

 

Ad 4. It is AGAINST the rules, and can only be accepted if there is a rule change and/or if there is a clear explanation why more than 1 account is tolerated. Again see point 6.

 

Ad 5. Due to points 1 & 2 (and point 4 as well) there is nothing that can be done about this, until there are program changes, like invisibility of non-active players /point deductions (or whatever is best)

 

Ad 6. All the above points show us one thing. Without very good (additional) rules, explanations of them and complete fairness when judging cases this site is doomed. Clear and simple.

 

So that means point 6 is the most important one of all and, as long as there are no technical solutions, it is all we have. And there are multiple HUGE problems here, which need to be taken care of IMMEDIATELY. I can’t think of any excuses to NOT do that, other than not WANTING to. And if that is the case that person should resign today! There are enough people that DO want to clean this mess up.

 

The overall problem is the complete lack of transparency, which leads to lost in faith/trust, complains, self vigilantism, (more) cheating and so on.

 

Problems:

 

The moderators: The Forum is a complete MESS. I think as moderators you can and should make the use of a forum as easy and transparent possible.

 

I suggest you move all the old post (pre 2014) to the off topic forum or create a new one and then have these subfora:

  • News and Updates (this should be the most important one): in this one you should make (closed) separate sticky posts on: rules / sanctions in case of glitching, rules / sanctions in case of refusing tie, rules / sanctions in case of abusiveness, and rules / sanctions on multiple accounts. You can also announce upcoming tournaments here (as a sticky) and post the rules/sanctions for them.
  • Feedback/Bugs: (strictly technical issues)
  • Game discussion: Talk about strategies, Peoples stories on great victories etc
  • Off Topic: football, songs, whatever
  • The App discussion forum is completely unclear to me, so I guess should be ended/merged with Feedback/Bugs

Every subforum, should have a first closed sticky post explaining who the moderator is for THAT subforum, how to contact them and how to behave on this (sub)forum, for example making very clear what issues can be posted here and what issues should be posted on a different forum.

 

The Moderating team (MT) should assign (an) MT-member(s) as main-moderator for a certain subforum and then that person should take COMPLETE responsibility for “their” forum, meaning they make sure they keep it clean of off topic issues, abusiveness etc. Most important they are responsible for a clear structure of “their” forum (no doubleposts, keeping things readable, etc) and being able to respond to questions/remarks from members.

 

I think there should maybe even be 2 extra subfora (or maybe 1 extra and one taking the place of the App forum): one for tournaments and one for cheaters-issues.

 

The tournament forum should have (as a closed sticky) the announcement of the date(s), rules, prizes and the names of the members of the Tournament Committee (TC) for that tournament. The tournament should also be announced in the News and Updates forum (but then all other matters should be in the Tournament forum). Then there is room to make a separate signup page and during the event a separate one for pairings (sticky and closed) and open ones for separate matches (for the screenprints of the results etc). There can also be a tournament Rankings closed sticky post.

 

Cheaters: there should be a separate sub-forum or if not possible an open sticky on the News/Update forum for this. I would really prefer a separate subforum, because of transparency. Then you can have separate sticky posts:

  • Explanation by the moderator Closed sticky) how to post accusations the use of screenshots, what is and is not considered cheating, the sanctions (should be VERY clear) and who will look at the accusations and come with verdicts (I STRONGLY suggest a namechange from JC to anything else, like Game committee or whatever you can come up with because the JUSTICE committee really was (and is) way too much in my opinion and to be honest, now has a reputation that is far from spotless.)
  • (closed) by the moderator explaining how to react to things like glitch attempts, but also telling people that it sometimes is better to take the draw and leave for a nicer opponent.
  • (closed) List of punished cheaters (if someone is banned you can clean up the list after a while, no need to have names of 10 months ago on there)
  • (open) accusing cheaters
  • If there is a notorious cheater, and we all know there are some, there could even be a separate open sticky be made. The Moderator should open that post and update their FIRST post in there with the latest news (like “being under review” “found guilty, but still waiting on administrative actions”). All posts in the general Cheaters topic concerning THIS cheater should be immediately moved by the Moderator to this topic. That way the general topic stays clean and readable.

I really see NO reasons for the Moderators not to implement the restructuring / cleaning of the forum IMMEDIATELY. It will take some time (unless you move all the old stuff to off topic and start fresh today, which I think is the best option).   

 

The JC (old name – should be changed) and TC.

The biggest problem here again is the lack of transparency. There should be very clear rules on what IS allowed and what is NOT, those rules should have CLEAR sanctions with no or little (well explained) exceptions.

 

First of all the name should be changed to show there is a fresh start, then there should be a whole new Committee, meaning some members could stay but there needs to be some personnel changes as well. Right now the moderators,  JC and TC are all more or less the SAME people which is ridiculous and leads to a lot of accusations, frustrations etc which can (and will) lead to more cheating, people taking matters in their own hands etc. There is no justification for it either, as all are complete different disciplines and it is wrong and unfair (to all concerned) to think that a person that let’s say is good at moderating can be a great organizer of tournaments as well, or a person that has the gift to run tournaments smoothly has ANY knowledge or qualities (to be responsible) for rules and sanctions on cheaters.

 

Therefore, there should be a SEPERATION OF POWERS. Without that all other changes are completely useless. So pick the best moderators and let them do that: Moderate their forum and help the community. Pick a new committee for rules/sanctions. Let different People run small tournaments and see who are the most gifted ones and ask them to start running bigger tournaments when the time is right. Of course people running a tournament can’t play in their own tournament, so that is something they have to think about. But organizing something like that can also be a lot of fun.

 

Since the current rankings are quite meaningless and becoming even less so every minute (due to multiple accounts, cheating etc) there should be a separate tournament ranking. That topic should be made a closed sticky as well. We should use a system with points per match - like 0 (loss), 1 (draw) 2 (win). This point system is just a suggestion/example. I am quite sure that very soon all the serious players will look more at the tournament ranking then the “normal” ranking. There should be as many tournaments (small and big) as possible. Of course only one account can play per tournament etc.

As the forumposts show there are enough knowledgeable and enthusiastic people that can fill the spots for a TC ,  “JC”, or moderating function (MT).

 

I think these changes should be implemented IMMEDIATELY as there is no reason to wait (things are getting worse by the day). AGAIN: I can’t think of any excuses to NOT do that, other than not WANTING to. And if that is the case that person should resign today! There are enough people that DO want to clean this mess up. 

 

Have a great 2014 and a fresh start!

 

PS. Please if you want to respond DON'T Quote the entire text or large parts of it, that just messes up the whole post/forum. let's keep things readable.



#3 The Maestro

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:38 AM

 

LearningThisGame, on 01 Jan 2014 - 4:51 PM, said:snapback.png

Maestro,

You make some very good points, and as someone also with legal training and judicial experience, I agree with many of your points. Some have even been privately discussed.

Personally, I would like to see the rules updated and a clear indication of new policies listed on the main playing site itself (rather than just the forum). I agree that there should be a clearer section with the rules and policies and guidance from the admins and Moderators.

Right now a big challenge is that the Moderators have limited ability to change around the core structure of the forum. This ability exists at a level above us. We also cannot update the News and Updates section (as an example).

Let's just say that there are a lot of discussions going on privately behind the scenes that I hope in 2014 will allow for many of these issues to be resolved. In the meantime, let us see if there is something we might be able to do to act upon some of your constructive feedback and criticisms, which are appreciated. I'll bring this up with the moderators and, where possible, the admins, as this is not something I can unilaterally determine or agree to.

 

 

Maestro, your post was well constructed and you have brought out many valid points.  However, do not forget that there are things that on with this site, that we are aware of and you wouldn't be.  Some of the points you bring are things that are beyond the Justice Committee's control and would need to be taken up with Ash our Customer Care Representative.  Once he returns from his vacation, we will encourage him to read your post or I will be happy to mail this post to him myself.  If you wish to write to him with some of your suggestions, we welcome you to do that as well.  

 

Like LTG said, with the new year now upon us, we look to see some changes coming for the good soon.  When that will happen, we don't know and we don't know the extent.  Do understand that Jumbo gaming runs this site, it is their decision what will be done with this site, and it has nothing to do with the Justice Committee or even Ash not wanting to do anything.  

 

I had already constructed a rough draft of some changes I'd like to see happen and we are still going over them as you wrote this letter.  I will keep the points you brought up in mind as I continue to press for new changes in the forum.  This will not be an overnight thing keep in mind, and some of the things we wish to accomplish will need the backing of Ash.  

 


#4 The Maestro

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:08 AM

So one day after posting I recieved TWO (!!) answers, and they are completely vague....

 

I ask for more transparency and the reply I get is: 

 

Maestro, your post was well constructed and you have brought out many valid points.  However, do not forget that there are things that on with this site, that we are aware of and you wouldn't be.  

 

So now you tell me that I don't know things that are going on, after I just to you I don't know what is going and you guys have to tell us. Hilarious.

 

 

Maestro,

You make some very good points, and as someone also with legal training and judicial experience, I agree with many of your points. Some have even been privately discussed.

Let's just say that there are a lot of discussions going on privately behind the scenes that I hope in 2014 will allow for many of these issues to be resolved. 

 

Same thing. I am pretty sure you guys are discussing a lot privately. That is exactly my point. You ask fairness from the players, then be fair and open yourself

 

Then we go back to hiding instead of acting:

 

Personally, I would like to see the rules updated and a clear indication of new policies listed on the main playing site itself (rather than just the forum). I agree that there should be a clearer section with the rules and policies and guidance from the admins and Moderators.

Right now a big challenge is that the Moderators have limited ability to change around the core structure of the forum. This ability exists at a level above us. We also cannot update the News and Updates section (as an example).
 

 

Some of the points you bring are things that are beyond the Justice Committee's control and would need to be taken up with Ash our Customer Care Representative.  Once he returns from his vacation, we will encourage him to read your post or I will be happy to mail this post to him myself.  If you wish to write to him with some of your suggestions, we welcome you to do that as well.  

 

Do understand that Jumbo gaming runs this site, it is their decision what will be done with this site, and it has nothing to do with the Justice Committee or even Ash not wanting to do anything.  

 

 

Or in other words: we are waiting on Ash because SOME of the things I asked for are not possible. So you guys are allowed to just sit back, wait on Ash, while 90% ( a wild guess, because there is no transparancy) of the points I made have NOTHING to do with Ash. Well.....that was exactly one of my complaints.

 

 

Maestro,

You make some very good points, and as someone also with legal training and judicial experience, I agree with many of your points. 

 

I really don't get this one at all. There is no need for ANY legal/judical knowledge or experience to see that things are a complete mess, there is no transparancy and people are ignored in a BIG way. Or do you mean that you had some legal training and you think that means you know how to dodge bullets and how you guys just can ignore everything and hide behind others, well I have news for you. That is just called politics and nothing else. This is not a personal attack but I really don't know what you tried to imply.

 

Now let me say that I really appreciate that the 2 of you AT LEAST gave some reply, which is more than the others did.



#5 The Maestro

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:18 AM

Second try:

 

Transparancy:

 

1. Who exactly are (all) the moderators

2. Who are in this JC 

3. Who were/are in the TC

 

Please simple and clear answers, and only by people that belong to these groups.



#6 Midnightguy

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:32 AM

I was a forum Moderator BEFORE the Justice Committee was formed by Karaiskakis and he asked The Prof and I to join.  We were disappointed with the rampant cheating that was going on then by a select few people and Karaiskakis stood firm asking the site to do something for nearly three weeks.  I at first thought he was wasting his time, but soon I join in and soon Karen agreed to listen to us.  Karen had agreed to allow us to form our Justice Committee as we promised her that we would take careful consideration to all cases we get and judge them as fair as we could.  Some cases have been more difficult than others, mind you.  We did much to take some of the pressure off an understaffed Online Stratego site and been doing the work of screening cases for Karen and Ash so they can focus on other matters.  

 

Within a week we had 3 of our top cheaters already found guilty and Karen reset their accounts and within two weeks we had two of them already banned deleted from the site.  We are now at 77 people we have judged as guilty for cheating and this list I assure you will continue to grow until some changes to the programming takes place.

 

You ask who are the Moderators and who are the JC?  The Moderators and JC/Justice Committee are the same.  Ash gave us the status of forum moderator position so, we can conduct site business privately and we can handle situations that are out of hand.  

 

We are in order of seniority:

 

Midnightguy 8 months moderator, Karaiskakis 4 months, The Prof 4 months, Learning This Game 2 months, and Maxroelofs 1 month.  

 

The latter two members were chosen by us by a number of factors (it was not them begging or asking us to join, we actually approached them asking if they would be interested)  and these players and approved by then Karen and now Ash.  Remember we are doing this on a voluntary basis and we receive no compensation from the site.  We do the for the love of the game and having a true desire to see this site succeed.

 

As for the TC/Tourney Committee, Karaiskakis and I decided months ago we wanted to give even more to the site and offer everyone a chance to play in a live event.  We wanted to show that we weren't just hear to enforce rules and punish people but, we are here for the site and wanted to do something fun.  

 

The first event was ran by Midnightguy, Karaiskakis, The Prof, Maxroelofs (before he was part of our JC), and Lt. Jones (Not part of the JC).  Trickz was an original member of the TC, but left for personal reasons and was replaced by Lt. Jones.  

 

The Christmas event was ran by Karaiskakis and Maxroelofs.

 

Any future TC/ Tourney Committee has not been decided as of yet.  

 

 

 

Same thing. I am pretty sure you guys are discussing a lot privately. That is exactly my point. You ask fairness from the players, then be fair and open yourself

 

Yes do we have some private information, and that would be for ANY game site where there are volunteers helping out for the game site.  I was a former moderator for a couple family card gaming sites (Spades, Hearts, Euchre....) and the site owners went over things that were privileged information and we only shared what the site needed to know or affected them.   Ash keeps us informed with what he discusses with Jumbo Gaming and gives us some information he wishes at this time to remain private.  Overall, we have been very fair with the players on this site, and as much as you may disagree we have shared our cases publicly we have gone over with the site so, our players who were cheated or felt were cheated were kept informed.  Some cases were faster than others decided on, so sometimes we may take up to a week to decide on case because, we don't all come on at the same time and we don't have open dialogue with one another other than a private forum to write our opinions and exchange notes and facts about a case.

 

 

 

Or in other words: we are waiting on Ash because SOME of the things I asked for are not possible. So you guys are allowed to just sit back, wait on Ash, while 90% ( a wild guess, because there is no transparancy) of the points I made have NOTHING to do with Ash. Well.....that was exactly one of my complaints.

.While you  are always welcomed to write to the help center and have Ash answer to you directly, we are also the voice of Ash.  He does not have time to come to the forum to read every single forum post or write to them.  He does that being the Customer Care Representative and our duty as Forum moderators and we speak for the site in the forum board.  Things have been hectic over the last few weeks since again, I will say it "He is on a holiday vacation"    

 

 

 

You make some very good points, and as someone also with legal training and judicial experience, I agree with many of your points. 

We agree with you Mastro.  Some things need to change and we are going over that right now, like I said on my previous post.  This statement was to show you that we appreciate the time you took to write this post and yes we did reply to you.


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#7 The Maestro

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 01:25 PM

Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks! It is now clear how the Power base was built and only confirms what I already stated.

 

And so this is very urgent:

 

As the forumposts show there are enough knowledgeable and enthusiastic people that can fill the spots for a TC ,  “JC”, or moderating function (MT).

 

I think these changes should be implemented IMMEDIATELY as there is no reason to wait (things are getting worse by the day). AGAIN: I can’t think of any excuses to NOT do that, other than not WANTING to. And if that is the case that person should resign today! There are enough people that DO want to clean this mess up. 

 

 

I know that Stratego site is understaffed, in fact after Karen "just" left I think only Ash is left. And we all know that he can be gone tomorrow, next week or whenever. So instead of using that as an excuse and be passive you should accept the facts for what they are and if you can (and WANT to) be active instead. That is exactly what I said in my initial post. And if the members or certain members of the currect Power Base have little faith (or less faith than before) they should just resign and ask others to do the dirty work, because I fully understand that is exactly what it is. But the PowerBase has to understand that being in that Base comes with responsilibilties, quite a lot of them and more than just judging cheaters.

 

In fact the way things are going it is obvious that the current Power Base is failing and that something has to change immediately. It is very nice that the 5 of you will discuss that privately, but then you guys are missing the point. Things are way PAST that point. I assume you all put a lot of time in all (or most) of the problems, but it was either just not enough or some people where just not skilled enough for certain tasks (which is no shame, since it is IMPOSSIBLE to be skilled with ALL the tasks you guys gave yourself). I am in no way bashing ANY member personally, so we don't have to get emotional here, I am just looking at the facts and the results. 

 

The forum is a mess and it is not at all the responsibility of Ash, it belongs to the Power Base. We have a cheaters topic of 60 pages which is completely ridiculous. Is it so much trouble to open a new topic and call it, let's say Cheaters 2014 and keep it a lot lighter by in the first post telling people in a clear way what the rules are, the sanctions and who will judge them and how (screenshots etc). So either the 5 moderaters clean this mess up now or some of you have to take their responsibilities and RESIGN. It is that simple.

 

 

I was a forum Moderator BEFORE the Justice Committee was formed by Karaiskakis and he asked The Prof and I to join.  We were disappointed with the rampant cheating that was going on then by a select few people and Karaiskakis stood firm asking the site to do something for nearly three weeks.  I at first thought he was wasting his time, but soon I join in and soon Karen agreed to listen to us.  

 

 

The name of the JC was first of all a risky pick, because it is quite a statement calling yourself JUSTICE. Again this has nothing to do with Ash. From the info Midnight gave us Karaiskakis formed this thing by himself !!??!!??), and before he was even a moderator (???) because he could not get answers or action taken "for nearly 3 weeks". Well then I guess it seems like "history repeats itself" because a lot of people, me just being one of them, have been asking for A LONG time (longer than 3 weeks) for the current Power Base to ACT (on different matters). Pre-JC you were dealing with people that were hardly here and ignored you and sat on their throne. NOW we are dealing with people who are here ALL of the time and some of them ignore everything. So in a way things got a lot worse. Just the fact that you are in the PowerBase doesn't give you more Power just a lot more responsibilities.

 

THAT is why the stratego site, Jumbo or whoever appoints/appointed you; they really don't want to go through all that crap all the time. They delivered a site that looks great but due to all the programm-errors is almost worthless. Without a programmers team, updates etc it is lost. We are dealing here with a serverely handicapped site.

 

So why don't we all join efforts and do something with this ugly monster we have here, but we somehow all adore, as OUR litttle ugly monster. And this Powerbase thing is standing in the way of that. That is what we have been trying to tell you.

 

This site is what it is and it won't get any better. You can mail Ash 3000 times, but he can do nothing. He probably knows as much about programming as he does about being a dentist, otherwise he would have been a programmer or fixed those bugs by himself.

 

I think all the members of the forum have to undertsand and accept these facts:

 

- this site is SEVERELY handicapped and you can post programmsuggestions as much as you want but it won't happen (soon). Just try to make the best of it with what we currently have

- the Powerbase guys are not kings, they are closer to garbagemen. They have to clean up all the mess that people make and by (trying to) do (ing) so that deserves a lot of respect.

- we all have to make things as pleasant as possible here, so we try to ban cheaters and don't turn into one ourselves

- the rankings are completely USELESS. Try to accept that. They are completely fake and manipulated. So there is really no use to cheat or feel bad even after you have been glitched for the third time in a day, because it really doesn't matter. Just report the cheater, stay cool and move on.

- join as many tournaments as possible if you are really interested how good you are compared to other players. There will be no cheaters and possibly the best players will join.

 

But the Powerbase guys also have to understand those facts. You are garbagemen, not kings. So your function is not ABOVE the others but to be among them or even under them. That's why the JC name is so wrong. You don't have to call yourself the Garbageteam,but maybe something like the Ghostbusters would be a lot better and certainly more appropriate.

 

The last thing you should do is act like you are the chosen ones and you are above others. That's why I don't understand why it sometimes seems like you are almost fighting to keep your little team closed instead of opening up and let more people clean up garbage... 

 

In closing I hereby want to applaud the 5 of you for volunteering and doing this dirty job. Don't let the smell of garbage affect you or go to your head!



#8 Dekaeneas-Spy

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 01:55 PM

The Maestro said:

 

I think these changes should be implemented IMMEDIATELY as there is no reason to wait (things are getting worse by the day). AGAIN: I can’t think of any excuses to NOT do that, other than not WANTING to. And if that is the case that person should resign today! There are enough people that DO want to clean this mess up.

 

Dekaeneas-Spy: Νice you say sir Μaestro, but to me it sounds a little discerning(IMMEDIETELY).

                           Νice you say sir Μaestro, but to me it sounds a little threatening(And if that is the case that person should resign  today!)

what happened suddenly? discern a concern who so long had not so strongly.
we all (and moderators) do not see what needs to change to make better the stratego.com?

Did you want to become moderator?It is not bad just i ask.

 

Dekaeneas-Spy(OLYMPOS) ;)



#9 The Maestro

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 02:28 PM

Hello D-Spy, 

 

I am not completely understanding your post, so I just answer on what I think you are saying,

 

Yes I am saying that people who have responsiblities should take them or resign. I think that is only logical. And there are certain things that can be done TODAY (like the examples I gave - new cheaters 2014 thread, with explination), and there is no reason to wait. Same goes for a namechange of that ridiculous JC. 

 

No I have no desire to be a moderator, so don't worry about that (I would probably ban people for using to many colours or smileys in their text - that was a joke D-SPY). Now that we have cleared that issue I would really hope that this post can stay serious, becasue this is a serious matter and the clock keeps ticking, So please let us give The Powerbase/Garbagemen room to answer different issues. 

 

If you want any info from me DSpy (or others) you can PM me and we can keep this post clean.



#10 Dekaeneas-Spy

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 03:46 PM

Hello D-Spy, 

 

I am not completely understanding your post, so I just answer on what I think you are saying,

 

Yes I am saying that people who have responsiblities should take them or resign. I think that is only logical. And there are certain things that can be done TODAY (like the examples I gave - new cheaters 2014 thread, with explination), and there is no reason to wait. Same goes for a namechange of that ridiculous JC. 

 

No I have no desire to be a moderator, so don't worry about that (I would probably ban people for using to many colours or smileys in their text - that was a joke D-SPY). Now that we have cleared that issue I would really hope that this post can stay serious, becasue this is a serious matter and the clock keeps ticking, So please let us give The Powerbase/Garbagemen room to answer different issues. 

 

If you want any info from me DSpy (or others) you can PM me and we can keep this post clean.

I have no reason to worry.

But I understand that you pressure the moderators while as we all know
if not enable the developers can not change many things
.

Thank you my friend and sorry for my english.



#11 Where Is Ya Flag

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 03:47 PM

My conclusion so far by reading this:

 

The site is crap, the forum is unorganised crap..

We ALL know that by now.

 

Moderators (or as read, powerbase, JC, TC.) has hardly power on the forum.

Ash has to confirm and change things, but seems somehow never be found or incapable of doing so..

But there is hope, things WILL change in 2014, when or what, we, the regular persons don't know but it's discussed in private..

Moderators has been clear to us most of the time, even if it has to take 10 messages to take it out of them, so my conclusion on this one is that they don't know either when or what will change in the future..

 

 

 

My question:

What "power" do you as a moderator team have? Does is stop at hide messages on the forum, take down notes about cheaters and move a topic to another forum?

 

If you have more power, are you capable of removing countless topics about nothing or things which has been repeated multiple times.

Do you have the power to create sub forums?

If so, as Meastro said, you're the garbage men, clean it up, sort it out..

Even tho, while writing this, it's a little bit to ask to people who volunteered to do this, but as meastro said; it is part of your responsibilty

 

What is Ash his role on all this?

Was he one of Keesing games? Is he one of Jumbo's technical staff? Is he a third party invester?

 

 

 

The Maestro said:

 

I think these changes should be implemented IMMEDIATELY as there is no reason to wait (things are getting worse by the day). AGAIN: I can’t think of any excuses to NOT do that, other than not WANTING to. And if that is the case that person should resign today! There are enough people that DO want to clean this mess up.

 

Dekaeneas-Spy: Νice you say sir Μaestro, but to me it sounds a little discerning(IMMEDIETELY).

                           Νice you say sir Μaestro, but to me it sounds a little threatening(And if that is the case that person should resign  today!)

what happened suddenly? discern a concern who so long had not so strongly.
we all (and moderators) do not see what needs to change to make better the stratego.com?

Did you want to become moderator?It is not bad just i ask.

 

Dekaeneas-Spy(OLYMPOS) ;)

 

 

The main thing I think maestro is focusing on is; change..

We all agree things needs to change, yesterday would be better than tomorrow..

 

The moderator team should change what they can change, and if that is by sorting the forum and make more subforums clean and open rules etc. etc. that is what they should do..

So far, my conclusion is, they can't do much more.

 

The way I read his "resign" thing, is, that if they have no power to make a change, other than take notes of cheaters, hide posts and move posts they all should resign..

 

I bet Ash would come out of the wizards hat out of nowhere and actually give them the power to change, atleast minor things.

 

If they do can and want a change, why not start by closing down the cheaters section (part1)..

And start a new topic: cheaters section 2014 was an example:

Top message will be what to do against them, what not to do, what are the sanctions..

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Within a week we had 3 of our top cheaters already found guilty and Karen reset their accounts and within two weeks we had two of them already banned deleted from the site.  We are now at 77 people we have judged as guilty for cheating and this list I assure you will continue to grow until some changes to the programming takes place."

 

77 is really the tip of the mountain..

I can't play 3 games or I see another one trying to glitch me.

Ask my virtual left and right neighbour and they do got the same problem..

But then, Karen left, and their was nothing to do but taking notes.

 

 

As the meastro said (and I said it too several times) the leaderboards are a joke.

We got glitchers who already played 1k+ times with a close to 50% win ratio, which basicly means they already lost 500x but dont wanna lose the 501th time to people who are on the top 100 list thanks to glitching.

 

I knnow you wanna sound it as a little succes on a volunteers basic, but in the end the problem isn't gone and to me it feels like every 3 days we get 77 NEW cheaters


What you lookin' at? You all a bunch of *bleeping* A holes. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be. You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your *bleeping* fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So...what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide--how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth. Even when I lie. So say goodnight to the bad guy!

2zjf5h4.jpg


#12 LearningThisGame

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:14 PM

So one day after posting I recieved TWO (!!) answers, and they are completely vague....

 

I ask for more transparency and the reply I get is: 

 

 

 

So now you tell me that I don't know things that are going on, after I just to you I don't know what is going and you guys have to tell us. Hilarious.

 

 
 

 

Same thing. I am pretty sure you guys are discussing a lot privately. That is exactly my point. You ask fairness from the players, then be fair and open yourself

 

Then we go back to hiding instead of acting:

 

 

 

 

Or in other words: we are waiting on Ash because SOME of the things I asked for are not possible. So you guys are allowed to just sit back, wait on Ash, while 90% ( a wild guess, because there is no transparancy) of the points I made have NOTHING to do with Ash. Well.....that was exactly one of my complaints.

 

 

 

I really don't get this one at all. There is no need for ANY legal/judical knowledge or experience to see that things are a complete mess, there is no transparancy and people are ignored in a BIG way. Or do you mean that you had some legal training and you think that means you know how to dodge bullets and how you guys just can ignore everything and hide behind others, well I have news for you. That is just called politics and nothing else. This is not a personal attack but I really don't know what you tried to imply.

 

Now let me say that I really appreciate that the 2 of you AT LEAST gave some reply, which is more than the others did.

 

Maestro,

 

Relax. We're all here with the same purpose: to try to keep this site moving forward as much as possible. 

 

You might want to consider that perhaps there is some reason why we are being vague, as you claim. Perhaps  (hint hint) we are not authorized or not in a position to disclose more details at this point that would more directly answer your questions and concerns. 

 

I think I have already been active enough and plain enough in my numerous posts to the community to show that I am trying to provide as much clarity and transparency as possible. You may disagree, and that is your right. In my opinion, transparency has not been a major issue, but structural organization and clarity has been in need of improvement.

 

Now, instead of making assumptions, if you have questions about what we are able to do and what we aren't able to do, we will answer them to the extent we can. As I already explained, there are a lot of good ideas you have regarding restructuring the forum however, as I also already explained, we do not have the ability as moderators to restructure the forum in many of the ways you suggest. This is not about passing the buck to Ash or whatever; it is simply an attempt to edify you regarding what is feasible for us at this point.

 

As for the comment on legal training, my point (which I obviously failed to communicate well) was that you seemed to have come across your points from a process-based thought process and due process oriented perspective, which I appreciated given my background. I'm not sure why you took the most negative interpretation of this comment (to the extent where you basically resorted to an ad hominem attack), but so be it. 

 

As I gather my thoughts in more detail, I will share them, but at this point I am still reflecting on your points. I'll say this much for now: while I agree with your principle of separating powers, this does not necessarily logically equate to having people only perform one function. There are ways in which JC members can still be moderators without unduly overlapping powers or generating a conflict of interest. It should also be noted that JC members recuse themselves from cases where they are personally involved, and TC members, starting from the Christmas tournament, removed themselves from the gameplay itself.

 

Finally, just as you argue that a JC member may not necessarily be the best qualified person to run a tournament (a fair point), that does not preclude the possibility that that same member might actually also be the best qualified person. Each element needs to be reviewed on its own merits. 

 

As for your points on who replied, I understand the frustration of not being answered, but keep in mind that most of the moderators also have their day jobs and activities. We volunteer to help out as we can with our spare time because we care about this site and want to see it improve. Sometimes people need more than 24 hours before they can respond to a post as lengthy and detailed as your original post. 

 

You say we are more like "garbage men." Well, at least where I live in the US, garbage disposal people come about once a week. They are also paid for their work. We are dealing with "garbage," as you call it nearly every day voluntarily. Some of this "garbage" you never see, and I am sure you would not want to see or deal with. 

 

Yes, in an ideal world, everything you ask for (assuming we even agreed with all) would be done immediately. It is easy to say that people should step down if they are not able to implement something in a timeframe that you deem acceptable. That is absolutely your right. But sometimes you need to consider the realities of the world and take into account that maybe - just maybe - you don't have the whole picture and that for various reasons, the whole picture may not be viewable to you at this time; call it a lack of transparency if you want, but I think it is clear that the volunteers here have tried to be as transparent as they can. 

 

Now, if you and others feel I am not doing my "job" well, then I completely respect that and am more than happy to hear that feedback. If there is sufficient demand for me to step down, I will certainly do so. Again, I - and the rest of the volunteer moderators - are here to on the whole improve the site. Obviously I am biased, but I would dare venture that, while not perfect in our actions and decisions, we have benefited the site far more than we have harmed it to date.

 

Finally, I agree that the "Justice Committee" is not the optimal word choice. What would you (seriously) propose instead? I saw "Game committee;" anything else?

 

Since this thread is beginning to deviate from the core purpose of the Cheater Report, I am also likely going to try to move this to http://forum.strateg...etter/?hl=oints unless there is any objection.

 

That's all for now from me.

 

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, Maestro. I do appreciate that you are taking the time out to share your constructive feedback, and I want to encourage others to do the same. Ultimately, it is going to take all our collective efforts to keep this community strong and this site moving (if sometimes at a deliberate pace) in the right direction.


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#13 LearningThisGame

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:37 PM

 

My question:

What "power" do you as a moderator team have? Does is stop at hide messages on the forum, take down notes about cheaters and move a topic to another forum?

 

If you have more power, are you capable of removing countless topics about nothing or things which has been repeated multiple times.

Do you have the power to create sub forums?

 

 

In the spirit of continued transparency...

 

Moderators have the ability to hide most posts and - in rare cases - delete them. We usually do not delete posts unless it is obvious it should be deleted (e.g., an accidental duplicate post - not a post that is deemed "inappropriate"). When we hide posts, we are required to provide a logged reason for why the post has been hidden. This reason can be seen by the admins and other moderators for accountability. 

 

We are able with some of the forums to move posts from one to another. I am not sure why, but there are some posts we sometimes cannot move (perhaps a bug, perhaps intentional). We cannot touch or update the News & Updates forum. 

 

Moderators also have a separate private forum. This is where we log all cases, links to the appropriate original complaints, and record our debates, discussions, and votes. This forum is only accessible to moderators and admins.

 

Moderators also have the ability to edit most posts. Again, sometimes we can't edit some posts for reasons I am still trying to figure out. Rarely has a Moderator - to my knowledge - edited a post that is not their own (I did once edit another person's post to replace cursing with #@!$ characters rather than hide the post, as their points were otherwise noteworthy).

 

Moderators have the ability to create new topics, but not new forums or - if I understand  you correctly - subforums. 

 

Finally, moderators can see complaints reported by individuals through the forum's report and complaint functions. We do not have access to the customer care box or anything related to Jumbo/Keesing. 

 

 

 

What is Ash his role on all this?

Was he one of Keesing games? Is he one of Jumbo's technical staff? Is he a third party invester?

 

 

Ash is - as far as I am aware - a member of Keesing Games and an admin on this site. He represents the site and outranks any volunteers, including the "JC." I don't now the answer to whether he is a technical staffer or a third party investor. You can ask him directly if you wish.

 

JC members all moderators. At present, there are no moderators that are not JC members. JC members make recommendations regarding cheating, abuse, etc. to Jumbo/Keesing through Ash. Ash, at his discretion, implements the recommendations we make on behalf of the admin team. Most of the time Ash follows through on the JC's recommendations, though there are times when he - for good reasons that sometimes we know and sometimes we don't - chooses another approach. That is his sole prerogative. 

 

I agree that there needs to be clearer reorganization with a place where rules can be more clearly seen. To the extent we can, we will work on this. It will take some time and will be a work in process, but I don't think anyone - including JC members - disagree with this. 


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#14 Kris Kross

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:17 PM

AMEN MAESTRO!!!! AMEN!!!!! Finally someone else that see's right through this complete BS!



#15 The Maestro

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:29 PM

LTG,

 

Thanks for these comments and even more for being the first one to take real action by creating sticky Cheating and Abuse Rules and Guidance Post. The change in name from JC to Review Committee is also very much appreciated. 

 

I hope it doesn't stop here and there will be a new Cheaters topic, with cheaters 2014, so it remains readable.

 

Also I hope that we will have a lot more tournaments (under new management) and we can start with a ranking based on tournaments. That should not be so hard and we don't need Ash for that either (it can just be posted as a sticky). we will then have no more cheaters and finally a ranking that is fair. 



#16 Napoleon 1er

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:45 PM

Thank you very much LTG for your very detailed and transparent answers to the questions/issues raised by The Maestro and Where is ya flag. Thank you also for your voluntary service which is highly appreciated and for all the time your dedicate to make your best on this forum and with the cleaning of the cheaters. I wish to raise the same thanks to all other moderators Karaiskakis, The Prof, Midnightguy and maxroelofs. When dealing with you I have always perceived your very clear wish to do your best and a strong passion for this website and for this game, I do share this same passion as you and probably also all the fair players who participate lively to this forum and express their opinions (and sometimes their frustrations) do share this same passion as well.

LTG I wish also to congratulate you for your ability to keep calm and focused in your posts, beeing a moderator is not always easy but you do it very well, keep going like this ... even if you are not paid for that job (and just for this you should get all respect, certainly garbage team is not the correct name for your team, I would prefer something like "The Glitchbusters" or "The 5 antiglitch Musketeers" or just simply the "Moderating Team" or the "Moderating Comittee") you certainly gain a great and valuable personal experience out of it.

 

I wish also to say that I disagree with the statement made above by WIYF which says that you get a glitch every 3 games. Personnally I've played 309 games and got glitched maybe 5-6 times. So on average for every 50 games played I have 49 "normal" games and 1 cheated game. From the 49 "normal" games I can maybe take out 5-6 games where the opponent is insulting or talking badly in the chat ( in such case I just disregard the chat) and then from the remaining 43 games I have possibly 30-40% of the victories where the opponent prefers to disconnect from the game (and force me to wait 2:30 minutes) instead of surrender. So from my point of view a substantial improvment could be brought to the website if  the possibility to disconnect voluntarily could be disabled (again this requires programming skills but hopefully somebody from Keesing will take note of this suggestion)

 

Coming back to the topic I would like to know if there is a possibility to get some more information and statistics like the following:

1) Is it possible to know how many "effective" different players are registered on this website (= howmany different IP address)

2) How many games per day are played (on average)?

3) Who are the shareholders of Keesing and how is it possible to get in touch with them?

4) Do you as moderator have the possibility to see the players IP address or to get access to a list of accounts registered under the same IP address?

5) Do you as moderator know the plans of Keesing with regard to improving this website or creating a new one? Do they have a time schedule when they intend to bring the necessary program updates?

6) Is the Financial situation of Keesing ok or do they need investors? Who is the right contact person to discuss about that?

7) How is the number of registered players evolving, how many new IP address get registered every week? Is this number increasing or decreasing?

 

Wish you all a happy new year 2014 from the Swiss mountains snow.

 

Napoleon 1er

 


If you don't know where you go ... you have a lot of chance to arrive elsewhere ...

#17 The Maestro

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:54 AM

Jan 3 Update:

 

- Still no Cheaters 2014 post being made

 

As for your other complaint about the posting on cheating reports, we are going over and waiting for an agreement on a new system.  

 

 

Just open a new post and make it sticky....done.....you are here to ACT not to play civil servant / diplomat and "wait for an agreement".

 

 

- The dreaded Justice name is back.....unreal

 

Now as for our name, we could go with the boring "Stratego Online Moderator Staff" or "The Help Committee"  but we agreed on Justice Committee because when we were formed, we did it to stop and punish those who go pray on the innocent players on our site.  Perhaps we may decide on another name but, for now it will stay.  Other than a couple players who disrespect us because doing our job to clean up this site, I haven't heard anyone complain about our name.

 

Okay, very very clear. You don't want to sound boring. This is unreal, especially after all that is been said in this post. This thing is NOT about you and whether or not you think it is boring. This Justice name is offensive, ridiculous, sounds arrogant and leads to a lot of problems....but oh no that is not important....

 

I don't want to be boring, let's pick some sort of superpowers name, okay others don't like it, some hate it, it makes us look like arrogant kings, even divine (because as you well know a lot of - religious - people use JC for Jesus Christ) but let's all ignore that.

 

For Midnight it is not enough to also play under the super powers name of Captain Freedom. No he needs a Justice Committee name, 5 guys in spandex saving the world.....sure...

 

Earth calling Midnight: WAKE UP!



#18 Midnightguy

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:08 AM

 

For Midnight it is not enough to also play under the super powers name of Captain Freedom. No he needs a Justice Committee name, 5 guys in spandex saving the world.....sure...

 

Earth calling Midnight: WAKE UP!

 

 

You may be very surprised to learn that it was Karaiskakis who came up with the name and this was his idea of a committee and not mine and I was ASKED to join this committee. As I said again in the past, I was a moderator before this committee was formed.  Before LTG or myself or anyone else decides to change this name, Karaiskakis should have a say.  And no I never thought of JC meaning Jesus Christ before you brought it up nor do I believe anyone else in our committee did either. We also used the JC in our tourney event meaning "Judging Committee"  where was your outrage then?  

 

I believe over the last couple days, I have been more than accommodating to you and your requests for some changes, but getting personal with me isn't the way to go.  


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#19 Luckypapa

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:41 AM

@ Napoleon:

3) Who are the shareholders of Keesing and how is it possible to get in touch with them?
See my post in ‘Money making idea for Stratego.com’:

TMG-Group (Telegraaf Media Group), shareholder of Keesinggroup (mothercompany of Keesing Games), has stopped her internetactivities and tries to sell Keesinggroup.
Keesing is a wellknown company with puzzlebooks and similar things, also available on paper and internet. We'll have to wait for a company to buy Keesing and hopefully they then put the internetactivities (including stratego) back on the map.

5) Do you as moderator know the plans of Keesing with regard to improving this website or creating a new one? Do they have a time schedule when they intend to bring the necessary program updates?
See under 3. Nothing will happen until TMG has a buyer for Keesing.

6) Is the Financial situation of Keesing ok or do they need investors? Who is the right contact person to discuss about that?
Keesing
Keesing is a profitable business, but there is currently no effort put into the internet business.

We have to protect what we have and wait what will happen in the future.

Lucky

PS: See also post 14 in topic 'List for Programming Changes' by Nortrom.

The new series of Stratego games is already in development with The Lordz Games Studio (http://www.thelordzgamesstudio.com) and will release in 2015 on all major platforms, but no further detail regarding the scope, design and game features have as yet been announced.

"Generations grew up with Stratego as the classic game of battlefield strategy", said Arend Smit, CEO of Royal Jumbo. “We are excited to be working with the Slitherine Group which is clearly established and successful in its field of strategic war games. We believe that together we can create a totally new and unique digital game experience and bring Stratego to the next level.”

http://www.slitherin...t=46866#p442024

I have no idea what this means to Keesing.
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#20 The Maestro

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:10 AM

I said from the start that the JC thing is ridiculous, and if you think I am suprised about it being a Karaiskakis thing well I am not. In fact it is even in THIS post and was posted YESTERDAY

 

The name of the JC was first of all a risky pick, because it is quite a statement calling yourself JUSTICE. Again this has nothing to do with Ash. From the info Midnight gave us Karaiskakis formed this thing by himself !!??!!??), and before he was even a moderator (???) because he could not get answers or action taken "for nearly 3 weeks". 

 

Only because none of you reponded to my  (!!??!!??), and  (???) doesn't mean it isn't there. So me being suprised on that one is the overstatement of 2014 already and I wonder if it is going to be topped.

 

 

I believe over the last couple days, I have been more than accommodating to you and your requests for some changes, but getting personal with me isn't the way to go.  

 

 I am not getting personal at all, it's you (and maybe some other POWER BASE people) who take thing personally way too much. This entire post is actually about this and I really hope that you (and the others) get that. The name of the topic shows it, the whole first post is about it, so it should be quite clear. That's why I already posted yesterday that I was amazed only 2 of the 5 answered. Another 24 hours have passed and we are STILL at 2 out of 5,with one of them (Midnight) desperately trying to keep things the same as much as possible, while that is EXACTLY what should change.

 

Again you are here to serve, that's it. You are not above anything so saying things like  "I have been more than accommodating to you" is another example of how it should not be. It sounds like you did some things that you maybe didn't even wanted to do but did it as a favor (to me or others) or you felt pressured to do it. It can also sound as if you are above me/us and helping these simple peasants. You have not done ME any favours personally, nor should you. I am just trying to make clear in this post what is wrong here, what lives in the community and that you guys should act immediately. If you guys act (the right way) it is not a favour (to me or others) it is because that is YOUR duty

 

Acting is taking your responsibility and if several people tell you a name is offensive you should just listen. If you think this JC name is more important than (some) members of "your" site you should really consider resigning, This is NOT personal as I said it in my first post already. People that don't act when their entire AND ONLY function is to listen and act should (consider) resignation.

 

Thusfar we have 1 guy acting (LTG) and he did a great job, one guy at least answering but showing too little real action (a lot of "Ash" this and that, holding on for life to the ridiculous JC name, when just changing the name as LTG did solves everything).

 

Before you get personal with me, which there is no reason to, Midnight, because in my book you are still in the top 2 of the Power Base. The Prof and Max have been online as well but keep quite and Karaiskakis was able to like an answer in this post but that is about it. So I really hope that you (Midnight) will hop on the ACT-train and don't resign. And if you do want to resign (which is a personal choice) that you please wait until these other guys show their updated intentions. Otherwise it would be really sad, but it is a choice people make for themselves. 

 

Once again I am not saying ANYTHING personal about any of the members, just that if you have responsibility you should take it, look in the mirror and act. In the best way, like LTG, or just resign (which are both actions YOU take by yourself and shouldn't blame others for). Holding on to the current messed up situation is NON-action.  






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